GYMN-L Digest - 8 Jun 1995 to 9 Jun 1995

There are 19 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Tumbling
2. stereotypes
3. new guy
4. Unsubscribe
5. What the ..... ?
6. more gymn stuff (4)
7. Change in Gymn List Administrator!
8. Benchmarking
9. no-leg gymnast
10. PREP
11. GYMN-L Digest - 6 Jun 1995 to 7 Jun 1995
12. Good Responses
13. Mary Lou's rebuttle.
14. More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes
15. Re[2]: more gymn stuff (2)

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 23:25:54 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Tumbling

In a message dated 95-06-06 23:07:06 EDT, you write:
>Hi. Can anyone tell me which is harder, a double front on the fx, or
>an
>arabian double front?


Hi all !!!
Haven't responded in a while since my emphsis was getting through my first
year of Grad School and Coaching.

The answer to this question is hard since each gymnast has his/her strong
points, However for most gymnasts over the years double flipping out of Back
tumbling is much easier then doubling flipping comming from a forward move (
front handspring).
One of the Gymnasts on the team I coach does a running double front and
performs it well. He does however have shoulder trouble and can't back
tumble and front tumbling is his strength anyhow.

If I were to give advice on which I would Train it would be a double
Arabian. You are probabily asking why. The answer is simple there is many
more moves on floor and other events that transfer out of a double arabian.
Half in half out, Full in Back out, Thomas ect.. Not to put Down a running
double front but its harder to teach not to mencion spot and it has less
benificial progression "In my perspective" for the gymnast.

Hope this helps
Peace :o)
Carl

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 00:05:56 -0400
From: ***@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject: stereotypes

I'm not sure if this really is an answer to the question that was asked,
but I was reminded of it by the post that mentioned how people immediately
assume you're on Kim Zmeskal's level if you're a gymnast. Well another rather
humorous thing I've noticed is that the "average Joe" assumes that if you
mention you're going to a gymnastics meet, then OBVIOUSLY you must be a
competitor. It's like no one can grasp the concept of going just to watch, of
being a fan. I go to quite a few meets and have been on all the IG tours to the
World Championships, and every time the topic of where I'm going has come up on
an airplane, for instance, or in a taxi cab or the camera store or wherever,
someone has asked, in all seriousness, whether I'm competing! Granted, I AM
small (5'1") and look younger than my age (an ancient 32), but there is no way
I look like an elite gymnast! Maybe an ex-gymnast (although I'm not really even
that; I've always been mainly a fan). I find the whole thing pretty funny, but
also kind of sad in a way. I usually get VERY strange looks when I tell people
I'm going to the competition just to watch - as if this is an extremely bizarre
thing that no sane person would ever do. Somehow I don't think I'd get the same
quizzical looks if I said I were going to the World Series, the Superbowl or
the NBA Playoffs. Do any of the rest of you run into this reaction if you
mention you're going to a meet? I just sort of wonder what this says about the
average public's knowledge and image of gymnastics... ("Ignorance" is a word
that comes to mind.)

Beth

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 21:54:27 EDT
From: ***@PRODIGY.COM
Subject: new guy

Hi David! My name is AL and I live in Toronto. I am a
coach and a judge for Men's gymnastics. Did you happen to
attend the Provincial CHampionships that were held in Ottawa
this year? If so you would have had the opportunity to
watch some of the best gymnastics in Canada short of the
Senior National Team. Anyways, this fall the Soapberry
World Challenge should be going on (most likely in
Hamilton). Last Fall I had the opportunity to work ont he
floor there and met Gina Gogean and Anna Maria Bican. You
might want to try going there.
-=-AL-=-

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:46:04 EET
From: ***@FREC.BULL.FR
Subject: Unsubscribe

Please delete my subscription. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 02:51:23 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: What the ..... ?

>A Rudi on floor is a front layout with one and a half
twists. Currently it is rated as an "E" skill for women.<

I don't think it has to be a layout -- it's the 1-1/2 twist that makes a
front flip a rudi. Starting this month, it's been devalued to a D.

:-)
Adriana

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 02:49:09 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: more gymn stuff

>ballet: flexibility - ok. not 30s here, but 20s

Just for the record, there are certainly 30s in ballet. Not as many as 20s,
but not exactly unusual either. Also, it takes great leg strength,
endurance, and IMHO, it is *the* basic building block for proper body
position and control.

:-)
Adriana

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:08:30 -0600
From: ***@RMII.COM
Subject: Change in Gymn List Administrator!

Hey everyone,

Please join me in thanking Robyn for the amazing amount of effort she
had dedicated to Gymn over the last three years. As of yesterday, she
officially resigned as Gymn List Administrator. She is still on Gymn
(of course!), but since her email account for Gymn admin stuff will
soon die, she decided to offload her Gymn list admin duties. I'm sure
you all will agree that she's done a great job, especially for the
smooth transition to the Penn State listserv!

Our new Gymn list admin will be Debbie. All of you are away of
her eye for detail and her valued participation in Gymn. When we
three (Robyn, George, myself) were brainstorming for Gymners that we
felt were willing and dependable enough to do the job, Debbie seemed
the obvious choice. We asked her and she thankfully said yes!

Everyone please also join me in welcoming Debbie to the Gymn List
Administrator position! If you have mail concerning Gymn admin items
that you cannot handle through commands on the listserv, then please
contact Debbie at the following address (which hasn't changed, it's
just pointed at her now):

gymn-l-request@psuvm.psu.edu

Rachele

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:17:28 +0500
From: ***@HEDLEY.EAST.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: Benchmarking

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the whole idea was supposed to be making
sure our kid's have fun, healthly, diverse experiences. My 6 year old spends
4 hours a week at the gym, my 9 year old spends 14 hours. Next year they are
upping the hours for the competitive girls, but I already told them Sara
can't do it. At 9, she also has school, dance, mountain biking, road biking,
skiing, and saxaphone lessons. She doesn't want to give up any activity
because she is young and curious; I think that is great.

Don't get me wrong, this is what I know works for Sara and Arielle - THEIR
CHOICE. There is also a six year old that will be moved to team this summer
that at SIX already KNOWS that GYMNASTICS is what she wants. I will be
curious to see how she does next year (3 of the 4 six year olds that moved
up last year, stressed out and quit).

One thing I always make sure to tell Sara that the benchmark she needs to
worry about is how she did last time, not how other girls are doing. I am
very leary of mistaking competitive success for personal success...

sheri

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:38:25 EDT
From: ***@BIOMED.QUEENSU.CA
Subject: no-leg gymnast

I lost track of the coach of the little boy with no legs. I'd like to know
how well he is doing in gym and if his coach found different techniques for
movements.
Anne Dupont

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:30:12 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: PREP

To those who are interested in P.R.E.P.

Poise
Rhythm
Execution
Presentation

Prep is a beginner optional program. It will allow the recreational gymnast
to get out of the compulsory program. This could be an athlete who would
never make it to a full on floor or giant on the bars because of the amount
of hours available at their facility to train or because of body type or
ability or, in some cases, because they entered the sport at an older age.

It also it is an opportunity for the seriously training gymnast who is in
Level 5-7 to be introduced to a wider base of optional skills while still
developing and exiting through the compulsory program. Beginning coaches who
have not yet trained optional should find this a welcome and low key
introduction to coaching optional gymnasts.

The emphasize is on good execution. Difficulty is not awarded in any way.
There are no special requirements and no value part requirements. Only
execution, presentation, rhythm, amplitude and other general deductions such
as out of bounds, under time and overtime will be deducted from a 9.0 start
value.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:56:07 -0700
From: ***@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: more gymn stuff

Well! It looks like top athletes hit their
prime in their 20s and 30s across the board...
strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, etc...

Therefore, the same should be true for
gymnastics. Why isn't it? Any opinions out there?

Looking in from the outside, there doesn't appear to
be an infrastructure for elite gymnastics after college.
Just out of curiousity, would an independent gym
coach a woman after 18? Is cost a problem here?

Ruth


----- Begin Included Message -----

From owner-gymn-l@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Fri Jun 9 00:04 PDT 1995
Subject: Re: more gymn stuff
To: Multiple recipients of list GYMN-L <GYMN-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>ballet: flexibility - ok. not 30s here, but 20s

Just for the record, there are certainly 30s in ballet. Not as many as 20s,
but not exactly unusual either. Also, it takes great leg strength,
endurance, and IMHO, it is *the* basic building block for proper body
position and control.

:-)
Adriana


----- End Included Message -----

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:46:42 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: GYMN-L Digest - 6 Jun 1995 to 7 Jun 1995

>Those of you who are accusing Ms. Ryan of "yellow
>journalism": are you critical because she is exposing >gymnastics' "dirty
laundry" in public, or do you think she is >lying about what the various
gymnasts told her?

As for myself, as many people on this list will readily attest, I would
probably never be accused of either wanting to or trying to cover for the
generally-acknowledged "powers-that-be" in U.S. gymnastics. I would probably
be considered something of a muckraker who is tolerated only in the name of
free speech and spicy repartee.

But when a writer approaches a topic with the conclusion and then seeks
evidence to support it, would you call this responsible journalism? Certainly
gymnastics has its warts, but no more or less so than any other sport. Either
you want to solve the problems or eliminate the sport. If Ms. Ryan was
genuinely interested in solving the problems, she would have been far more
balanced in her approach, and would have suggested a way for all concerned to
work together to find solutions.

But Ms. Ryan's objective is, I feel, pretty clearly belied by her approach.
She gravitates toward the dark, somewhat anecdotic side of the sport, seeking
the excesses, the extremes, and uses those to condemn the sport in general
rather than the perpatrators in particular. Anyone who has even a pedestrian
relationship with gymnastics as it exists in clubs today would agree that
there is much good that Ms. Ryan inexplicably ignores.

What further discredits Ms. Ryan is her target audience. She seeks to sell
this book NOT to gymnasts, skaters, and sports professionals, but to the mass
market, who are collectively posessed with an even lesser apprehension of
gymnastics than the author herself. When you toss this ugly little snapshot
of gymnastics into a group of people never before exposed to it, they will
see gymnastics as ugly. That is both bad for the sport in general, and
unhelpful in genuinely making any positive changes. If this is not "yellow
journalism" in the most objective reading of the term, I ask all and
sundry--what is?

So I call Ms. Ryan's work (not Ms. Ryan, mind you) yellow journalism, not as
a gymnast, coach, or parent (which I have never been), not as a
self-interested club manager (which I am no longer and never will be again,)
and not as a professional member of the USAG (which I gave up nearly a year
ago,) but as someone who knows a pile of fertilizer when I smell one.

Fini. As usual, flamethrowers use e-mail only, please.

David

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 09:51:32 -0700
From: ***@BETA.TRICITY.WSU.EDU
Subject: Good Responses

Yesterday, Courtney wrote:

> Another which I really don't understand is people seem to think that if you
> do gymnastics you are automatically going or want to go to the Olympics. I
> believe that this is related to the belief that if you do gymnastics you are
> like Kim Zmeskal. "Can you do those flips like Kim Zmeskal or are you as
> good as her." Anyhow, a zillion times when I have told people I do
> gymnastics they are like," Oh, are you going to go to the Olympics, or do you
> want to?" Yes folks, it is possible to do a sport without going to the
> olympics. Maybe people ask this about every sports but I don't think so.
> One reward I think gymnastics has given me is to be more confident and
> courageous in situations.In gymnastics, you have to just go for tricks even
> when you are scared, otherwise you will never get them.This attitude of
> having to just push yourself to "go for it," even if you're scared can carry
> over to many other obstacles and situations in life too.
> Well, thats all I can think of for now.
> Courtney :)

You have a very good attitude. I am not a gymnast myself, but one good
response I thought of to "Oh, are you going to the Olympics, or do you
want to?" is something like, "Well, only X% (2%??) of gymnasts make it to
the elite level and even less than that make it to the Olympics. So the odds
are against me there. But I do gymnastics because I really enjoy the sport for
the courage it gives me and gives me a good aspect of teamwork, etc." And
if the person's really interested you can further _educate_ them. Maybe
this statistic and others like it will start a chain reaction and, maybe
in 50 years or so, we will be rid of many gymnastic stereotypes (probably
not, but we can hope.)

Anyway, good luck with fielding questions.

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:05:40 -0600
From: ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject: Re: more gymn stuff

>Well! It looks like top athletes hit their
>prime in their 20s and 30s across the board...
>strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, etc...
>
>Therefore, the same should be true for
>gymnastics. Why isn't it? Any opinions out there?


I think the strength-to-weight ratio is the key (age-limiting) factor here.


>Looking in from the outside, there doesn't appear to
>be an infrastructure for elite gymnastics after college.
>Just out of curiousity, would an independent gym
>coach a woman after 18? Is cost a problem here?


My former club coach had a rule that any team gymnast who stuck it out
through high school could come back and workout at anytime for free. He
even coached me at no cost for 2 summers when I was home between collegiate
seasons. I still take my grips with me to the gym when I go back to visit
him. :)

- Allison

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 10:58:17 -0700
From: ***@ENG.SUN.COM
Subject: Re: more gymn stuff

I'm not sure I can buy the strength-to-weight ratio
arguments for why gymnasts peak at age 15 rather than
the 20s and 30s.

I'm only 10 pounds off my age 15 weight at the ripe
old age of 38. So I don't think you HAVE to be heavier
as you get older...we just gain weight 'cuz we don't
exercise as much.

As far as strength goes, you get stronger the longer
you workout.. we're talking years here. Weight
training makes a huge difference in strength for a
relatively small weight gain from muscle mass.

fyi, it's good to know that at least one club supports
training after the high school years.

Ruth

reference: ----------------------------------------

>>Well! It looks like top athletes hit their
>>prime in their 20s and 30s across the board...
>>strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, etc...
>>
>>Therefore, the same should be true for
>>gymnastics. Why isn't it? Any opinions out there?


>I think the strength-to-weight ratio is the key (age-limiting) factor here.

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:32:54 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Mary Lou's rebuttle.

Lets have a show of keyboards from those of us who would like to have the
"abusive pressure" of competition reversed and placed squarely where it
belongs...on the media. Talk about pressure...remember speed skating, anyone?
How many times does an athlete who has been at the pinacle of world
competition see one of their (very) few failures rerun over and over again
before it rips their future ability to perform to shreds?

This same media subordinates the local successes of young heros and heroines
to the scorebox two weeks after competition when they're preforming and
inproving at near miracle paces within their regions. Nearly all world class
gymnasts, especially in the US and other non-socialist countries, come from
club environments, not school systems. When they make level nine or ten
before the age of 11 who hears about it save the parents and the
"inside-the-gym" circle? You won't find it heralded in the local paper,
that's for sure. Well, you get the drift. What would be nice is to see a
multiple gold medalist, live on world TV, answer a few short questions at
their big olympic interview, then say..."This is for all my compatriots from
the world over who worked their whole lives to get here and for one reason or
another fell short...'the media din't know or care who we were until they
thought they could get millions from advertisers exploiting our efforts, and
especially, our failures. I didn't need you to get here and I don't need you
to help me with my choice tomove on with my life, or win again should I
decide to remain in the athletic arena. We love your viewers, our spectators
who come to the local gyms, fields, whatever to see us when we're on our way
up, but the media, we can live just fine without. Therefore, this interview
is terminated, and so is my interest in you.' ".

Just a thought.///Don

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 15:08:52 -0400
From: ***@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: More Comments on Little Girls In P Boxes

I haven't read the book, but I think it should be recognized that not so nice
things happen behind the scenes in gymnastics training. But don't things
like this happen in every sport when training on a competitive level. I mean
I know that at my school (I just graduated from high school) kids on the
wrestling and crew team run around in sweatsuits and so on in order to make
the weight categories. I mean I don't think the coaches are calling them
pregnant animals or anything, but they feel they must lose weight in order to
reach the competition level. Nobody should feel they have to do that no
matter what age. Or some other kid I was talking too said that for the
football team they were forced to practice for hoursfully clothed with all
the padding and everything in August when it was higher than 90 degrees
outside. So my point is that every sport has problems that must be faced,
but that doesn't make it less of a great sport. Sure there are a million
horror stories about the little gymnasts, but it seems to me there are
probably just as many for other athletes on high skill levels. It just seems
ridiculous that the media seems to think this is limited to gymnastics.
Courtney

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:50:56 EST
From: ***@PCH.GC.CA
Subject: Re[2]: more gymn stuff

I'm not sure I can buy the strength-to-weight ratio
arguments for why gymnasts peak at age 15 rather than
the 20s and 30s.

I'm only 10 pounds off my age 15 weight at the ripe
old age of 38. So I don't think you HAVE to be heavier
as you get older...we just gain weight 'cuz we don't
exercise as much.

As far as strength goes, you get stronger the longer
you workout.. we're talking years here. Weight
training makes a huge difference in strength for a
relatively small weight gain from muscle mass.

fyi, it's good to know that at least one club supports
training after the high school years.

Ruth

reference: ----------------------------------------

>>Well! It looks like top athletes hit their
>>prime in their 20s and 30s across the board...
>>strength, flexibility, endurance, speed, etc...
>>
>>Therefore, the same should be true for
>>gymnastics. Why isn't it? Any opinions out there?


>I think the strength-to-weight ratio is the key (age-limiting) factor here.


I really don't know to much about this seeing how I've never competed, but I
think that girls at age 15 or 14 are stronger than women at 20-25. Having
watched older gymnists at the college level and younger ones like Amanda Borden
you can almost see the strength difference. I think alot also has to do with
weight distrobution. I think?????

David Gegear

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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 17:37:17 -0600
From: ***@MERLE.ACNS.NWU.EDU
Subject: Re: Re[2]: more gymn stuff

>I really don't know to much about this seeing how I've never competed, but I
>think that girls at age 15 or 14 are stronger than women at 20-25. Having
>watched older gymnists at the college level and younger ones like Amanda Borden
>you can almost see the strength difference. I think alot also has to do with
>weight distrobution. I think?????


I agree that weight distribution is a factor. Maybe to be more precise, it
is the "strength - to - moment of inertia" ratio that matters.

Certainly there are some great collegiate+ gymmnasts, most of whom continue
to improve and get stronger with experience and training. For someone who
has "grown up" doing gymnastics, I don't think age/size necessarily imposes
limitations. For someone starting out in gymnastics, however, I think such
factors probably do matter, particularly when learning certain skills.


- Allison

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End of GYMN-L Digest - 8 Jun 1995 to 9 Jun 1995
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